tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post2024527814189213081..comments2023-05-25T10:54:24.390+01:00Comments on weecalvin1509: Debtweecalvin1509http://www.blogger.com/profile/11651073682513238727noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-59706261428974485972013-08-19T10:38:53.197+01:002013-08-19T10:38:53.197+01:00Sorry for the delay in posting "Anon's&qu...Sorry for the delay in posting "Anon's" 13th August reply. I was away from my computer for a few days. I think, "Anon" (to be fair to Kc and myself) that we would need a name at this stage. It is one thing passing comment on the way past, but a prolonged debate is another. It is good to be able to identify whom we are speaking with here. Thanks to you both for continuing on the discussion. I appreciate your time and efforts. weecalvin1509https://www.blogger.com/profile/11651073682513238727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-43680332344491526262013-08-19T10:13:24.168+01:002013-08-19T10:13:24.168+01:00Anonymous,
Please forgive me. I read numerous qu...Anonymous,<br /><br />Please forgive me. I read numerous questions that I perceived as pointing to a specific “theme” concerning the atonement and it was that theme to which I attempted to reply. I'm not sure I could properly address all of your questions in a blog reply.<br /><br />If your specific question is “Did Christ die for my sin?” then my answer is a resounding yes as well as for mine and for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).Kchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02451413357867941720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-83049868269822616662013-08-13T21:38:26.938+01:002013-08-13T21:38:26.938+01:00Yes I absolutely agree that we ought to use all of...Yes I absolutely agree that we ought to use all of scripture, not our own salvation experience to determine what the Bible teaches about salvation. We also do not want to use our theoretical notions to determine truth, but scripture alone.<br /><br />I also wholeheartedly agree that The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit were all involved in a divine transaction to bring salvation to sinners.<br /><br />However you did not answer my questions...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-41263554183841316332013-08-12T15:11:56.899+01:002013-08-12T15:11:56.899+01:00Anonymous,
Thanks so much for the reply. I am gr...Anonymous,<br /><br />Thanks so much for the reply. I am grateful that my position appears theoretical. I would never want my theological position to be considered God's Word but I strive to insure that it's grounded in the Scripture. I think it's critical for us all to be able to make the distinction between “thus saith the Lord” and “my understanding is”.<br /><br />If we assume an anthropological position, as I intimated to Colin previously, and frame the Atonement from the perspective that it's all about “my salvation” then it's easy to assume that the Atonement need only be limited to those who are saved. If, however, we perceive that the Atonement is a divine transaction between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit having enormous consequence on all things then we can remain open to see those things in the Scripture. Kchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02451413357867941720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-78496663263729431062013-08-11T02:27:55.744+01:002013-08-11T02:27:55.744+01:00I am confused, Kc. You say that the purpose of the...I am confused, Kc. You say that the purpose of the debt being paid was to fulfull the will of the Father, but wasn't about keeping sinners out of hell.<br /><br />But why did the Father require the debt to be paid? Christ was sinless, so He didn't die for His own sins. For whose then did he die? Or what was He doing on the cross? What was its purpose?<br /><br />If Christ did not die in order that sinners would not go to hell, then why do the scriptures specifically use the word 'salvation' to describe what we need? Saved from what?<br /><br />The way you describe it, it all sounds sort of 'theoretical' rather than practical which is the way that the scriptures outline salvation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-22005654381086194592013-08-10T14:35:59.764+01:002013-08-10T14:35:59.764+01:00Colin,
You've been a blessing to me, as alway...Colin,<br /><br />You've been a blessing to me, as always. I appreciate the open door and I'll be reading (as always) and watching for another request for comment. ;-)<br /><br />May God continue to bless you and your family and all of your efforts on behalf of our Lord and His Church.Kchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02451413357867941720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-81028488028650835232013-08-09T22:45:07.950+01:002013-08-09T22:45:07.950+01:00Kc,
It has been a good discussion. I appreciate y...Kc,<br /><br />It has been a good discussion. I appreciate your stating of your views. maybe time to move on, though feel free to drop us i.e. any one who bothers reading this blog ;o) a comment if and when the notion takes you.<br /><br />I really miss Rose's Reasonings. Those were good days.<br /><br />Regards, weecalvin1509https://www.blogger.com/profile/11651073682513238727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-57456812151507569882013-08-09T16:17:58.610+01:002013-08-09T16:17:58.610+01:00Colin,
I think we agree with regard to the unpard...Colin,<br /><br />I think we agree with regard to the unpardonable sin. I understand that to be the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit Who testifies concerning Christ.<br /><br />I am honestly afraid to judge the righteousness of God. If pressed I would say I could understand that if God wanted to demonstrate His righteousness in His providence for all His creation then yes, but I am still only persuaded that Christ did the will of the Father.Kchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02451413357867941720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-56036365165954867362013-08-09T15:49:07.960+01:002013-08-09T15:49:07.960+01:00Kc,
It is true that there is only one sin that ca...Kc,<br /><br />It is true that there is only one sin that cannot ever be forgiven, but I am unaware of anywhere in Scripture where God forgives all the other sins, only to leave one remaining. It is as murderers, fornicators etc., (specific sins) that the unpardoned wicked cannot enter the kingdom God (1 Corinthians 6:9) For these things (individual unpardoned sins) comes the wrath of God etc (Colossians 3:5) <br /><br />Another approach, would Jesus atone for sins that He knew beforehand would never be repented of? <br /><br />Regards, weecalvin1509https://www.blogger.com/profile/11651073682513238727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-24417629231606343122013-08-09T15:07:01.076+01:002013-08-09T15:07:01.076+01:00Colin,
Brother you well know I consider it a grea...Colin,<br /><br />Brother you well know I consider it a great honor and privilege to discuss these things with you.<br /><br />Since I consider that Christ' work was to do the will of the Father then I see it is as fully complete and perfectly accomplished. He did not potentially fulfill the will of the Father. He fully accomplished it. With respect to potentiality and sin, I think we both agree there is only one sin that cannot be forgiven.Kchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02451413357867941720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-54192795677685581652013-08-09T14:38:03.665+01:002013-08-09T14:38:03.665+01:00Kc,
Then was Christ's work largely potential ...Kc,<br /><br />Then was Christ's work largely potential rather than actual i.e. (as pointed out by Mr McKillop above) is it more what was on offer rather than what was actually achieved? If the sins of the reprobate was actually atoned for, then the law is satisfied and he can go free. <br /><br />Appreciate your time and thoughts on this one,<br /><br />Regards, weecalvin1509https://www.blogger.com/profile/11651073682513238727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-16827691983158972072013-08-09T13:45:42.285+01:002013-08-09T13:45:42.285+01:00Colin,
Here again the limitations of the illustra...Colin,<br /><br />Here again the limitations of the illustration precludes any further consideration. <br /><br />I think the key for my perspective is the object of Christ' atonement. If the object is to get “no hell” for men then I would agree your perspective makes perfect sense. From my perspective the object of His atonement was to satisfy the will of the Father. <br /><br />I think Romans 5 fully explains both the objective and subjective aspect of Christ' obedience. Objectively all men were brought under condemnation through Adam but subjectively not all men are condemned. Objectively by Christ' righteousness the free gift is upon all men unto justification of life but subjectively not all men will have life.Kchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02451413357867941720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-79732386837494186442013-08-09T13:20:25.319+01:002013-08-09T13:20:25.319+01:00Kc,
So a sinner, whose debt is paid in full, will...Kc,<br /><br />So a sinner, whose debt is paid in full, will still go the debtor's prison for a debt that has already been paid? <br /><br />Regards, weecalvin1509https://www.blogger.com/profile/11651073682513238727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-44885631997075422562013-08-09T12:51:34.778+01:002013-08-09T12:51:34.778+01:00Colin,
Then I think you've answered your ques...Colin,<br /><br />Then I think you've answered your question. The flaw in the post is the obvious limitation of the illustration. <br /><br />Objectively Christ is the propitiation for, not only our sins, but the sins of the whole world (1st John 2:2) and subjectively the redeemer of whosoever believes in Him (John 3ff). Objectively His righteousness is upon all men unto justification of life (Romans 5:18), but subjectively life is given to those who believe in Him.<br /><br />By this I'm now sure we're in complete agreement. ;-)Kchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02451413357867941720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-63522984702950799422013-08-09T12:09:12.889+01:002013-08-09T12:09:12.889+01:00Kc,
You are correct thus far. Calvinism believes ...Kc,<br /><br />You are correct thus far. Calvinism believes that all for whom the debt is paid will come to believe it. Non Calvinism/Arminianism disagree and believe that millions of those debt has been paid on the Cross will never believe it and go to Hell. The article asks on what basis? The unbelief of the poor man in the illustration cannot make void the fact that his debt is paid. The Creditor isn't going to send in the debt collectors or go to court. He will not see the inside of a debtor's prison. There is no case. The debt is paid, whether he dances a jig - no inferences please ;o) - or weeps himself to sleep every night until he dies. <br /><br />Obviously (as said before) there are limitations to the illustration. We are not examining the subjective end of things here - the faith of the sinner - but the objective i.e. what Christ actually did on the Cross.<br /><br />Regards, weecalvin1509https://www.blogger.com/profile/11651073682513238727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-46791129975057962032013-08-09T11:19:05.454+01:002013-08-09T11:19:05.454+01:00Colin,
I can say we agree in Spirit! ;-) BTW I...Colin,<br /><br />I can say we agree in Spirit! ;-) BTW I'm early to bed most nights too.<br /><br />So would the Calvinist then agree that there are those whose debt has been paid in full and yet refuse to believe it? It seems the distinction between the Calvinist and the non-Calvinist/Arminian concerns the extent of debt payment and the eventual outcome of those whose debt has been paid. Am I correct thus far?Kchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02451413357867941720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-28685217127767516872013-08-09T11:00:16.502+01:002013-08-09T11:00:16.502+01:00Good morning Kc,
You're up early! Surely this...Good morning Kc,<br /><br />You're up early! Surely this conversation didn't keep you awake all night? ;o) <br /><br />Not sure why you left the blank in your formula above. The debt was actually paid on Calvary's Cross. This had been planned in the decree of God from eternity past. It's principle was applied to the OT believers i.e. those forgiven before Calvary. Experimentally, the application of the paid debt is not applied to the believer until the moment he believes. Until then, He is still a child of wrath even as others, although the decree of God planned that there would be a day and a hour when this would be cease to be i.e. when he repents and believes the gospel. <br /><br />I assume that you are in complete agreement with me so far and are just looking someone to articulate it all for you ;o)<br /><br />Regards, <br />weecalvin1509https://www.blogger.com/profile/11651073682513238727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-65837421310626211362013-08-09T10:44:15.328+01:002013-08-09T10:44:15.328+01:00Good morning Colin,
Would you say then that “no d...Good morning Colin,<br /><br />Would you say then that “no debt” = ”no hell” = ….. = “chosen in Christ” ?<br /><br />If so then when is/was the debt paid ?Kchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02451413357867941720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-73960530360462109482013-08-08T22:21:33.844+01:002013-08-08T22:21:33.844+01:00Kc,
The Christian was chosen in Christ from befor...Kc,<br /><br />The Christian was chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4) Experimentally, the sinner is found "accepted in Christ" upon that act of saving faith which flows from his having been chosen in Christ.<br /><br />Regards, weecalvin1509https://www.blogger.com/profile/11651073682513238727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-82517751076291159882013-08-08T17:19:03.873+01:002013-08-08T17:19:03.873+01:00Colin,
How then is one found accepted in Christ?Colin,<br /><br />How then is one found accepted in Christ?Kchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02451413357867941720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-15512921858351305922013-08-08T16:55:25.874+01:002013-08-08T16:55:25.874+01:00Kc, If I read you right, then I affirm.
Regards,...Kc, If I read you right, then I affirm. <br /><br />Regards, weecalvin1509https://www.blogger.com/profile/11651073682513238727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-61636808029970152222013-08-08T16:45:44.282+01:002013-08-08T16:45:44.282+01:00Colin,
Thankfully no, only an hour or so. The re...Colin,<br /><br />Thankfully no, only an hour or so. The rest was in preparation and transit. ;-)<br /><br />To re-cap thus far: Are you saying that “no hell” = “no sin” = “justification” = “accepted in Christ”?Kchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02451413357867941720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-29084172604706571612013-08-08T14:28:55.650+01:002013-08-08T14:28:55.650+01:00Kc,
In God's accounts, there is no sin for th...Kc,<br /><br />In God's accounts, there is no sin for the justified soul. He is "accepted in the Beloved" (Eph 1:6) i.e. Christ. Therefore for him, there is no hell because (going back to the original article) the debt has been paid in full. If the debt is paid, then there is no Hell, b/c there is condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1) - the believer no longer condemned (John 5:24)& therefore no longer abiding under the wrath of God (John 3:36)<br /><br />Really is simple Evangelical theology is it not? ;o)<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />P/s I hope, for the sake of your wife, that the "few hours" isn't all spent in the dentist's chair...weecalvin1509https://www.blogger.com/profile/11651073682513238727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-81576465813558741612013-08-08T14:21:07.333+01:002013-08-08T14:21:07.333+01:00Colin,
Would you then say that justification = “N...Colin,<br /><br />Would you then say that justification = “No sin” and therefore “no hell”?. <br /><br />(I have to run the Misses to the Dentist but I'll continue in a few hours if you allow. ;-)Kchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02451413357867941720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4461727154580802707.post-15915967454933101972013-08-08T13:52:34.335+01:002013-08-08T13:52:34.335+01:00Kc
You lose me there with that one. If a man did ...Kc<br /><br />You lose me there with that one. If a man did not sin, then he would not be in Hell. Hell is the wage of sin (Romans 6:23) If a man is justified, then he is accounted as if he had never sinned i.e. he is accounted as righteous, and therefore no Hell. I can't see any problem with that.<br /><br />Regards, weecalvin1509https://www.blogger.com/profile/11651073682513238727noreply@blogger.com